00:37:07 George Kerchner: Not getting audio. Will check settings. 00:37:31 Carl Weaver, MBA, CAE: Try restarting Zoom. Sometimes this happens... 00:37:36 David Nathan: Audio is working here 00:37:37 George Kerchner: Got it. I'm in. 00:37:37 Lakelan Fennell: Thanks for taking the time to join us Pete! 00:47:53 Lakelan Fennell: Is DOD therefore considered a person "causing Haz Mat materials to be transported in commerce"? 00:48:07 Jacob Pieroni: Exactly what I was thinking Lake 00:48:39 Jacob Pieroni: Also, the shipper as the property owner who's asking it to be included in their Personal Property move. 00:51:24 Allyson Nordstrom-Geraghty: Why would we not get into placarding if it's req'd for EV's? 00:51:29 Allyson Nordstrom-Geraghty: We're not just moving HHGD's. 00:52:28 Lakelan Fennell: Person causing = DOD service member 00:53:46 Rae Hickinbotham: Would that need to be listed on the GBL, like a fire arm? 00:54:11 Craig Carver: What limitations with HHG movement on battery size or type-metal rechargeable? 00:54:29 Allyson Nordstrom-Geraghty: Yes - 00:55:05 mark helders: How is someone, the person moving or the agent performing the move intended to determine all the LITHIUM battery items from battery items that are not lithium if they are in original packaging? Does every electronic item with a battery need to be identified accurately prior to so a determination can be made? 00:55:23 Scott Kiewitt: Can or should we refuse to transport items if we do not meet the qualifications to ensure safe transportation? If so, on what basis? Protection of other HHG's in the trailer/whse? Personnel handling the item(s) Are we obligated to inform other customers we are co-mingling their HHG's with hazardous materials? 00:55:30 mark helders: Are NOT in original packaging... 00:56:03 Allyson Nordstrom-Geraghty: How do we "connect" the two - the CFR and the IMDG. This is what a lot of people are having a problem with. 00:56:13 Richard Hedwall: even if class 9 is exempted from placarding per 49CFR, it is still regulated--so all of the req's for description on transport docs, employee training all apply? Drivers need HM endorsement on their CDL's? 00:57:08 Lakelan Fennell: I echo the last question @Richard Hedwall asked regarding HAZMAT endorsement on HHG driver's CDL license. 00:57:32 George Kerchner: No haz mat endorsement on CDL is required in U.S. since placarding is not required. 00:58:44 Emily Kozubowski: Is that total 300 watt hours for ALL batteries combined in the shipment ? or is that an individual battery of 300 watts or less. 00:59:03 Allyson Nordstrom-Geraghty: It's per individual battery. 00:59:34 Emily Kozubowski: Thank you Allyson! 00:59:38 George Kerchner: It's for each individual battery in the package. As long as the package does not exceed 30 kg. 00:59:51 Ruth Moritz: Does this exception related to wattage apply to truck transport from Canada to the US and vice versa? 01:00:42 Lakelan Fennell: Is there a way to determine the definition of "damaged"? Is that external damage, or is there a way to determine internal damage without the damage being externally visible? 01:00:45 George Kerchner: Canada has similar exceptions but their cut off is 100 Wh whereas the U.S. is 300 Wh. 01:01:43 Scott Kiewitt: Liquid/moisture seems to be one catalyst for causing these batteries to explode/cause a fast hot burn 01:02:28 Craig Carver: Could we get the actual CFR reference that Pete is discussing again? 01:03:01 George Kerchner: 49 CFR 173.185 01:03:37 Charles White: AMP X VOLTS = WATT HOURS 01:03:38 mark helders: Do I understand the 100WH still applies to International shipments as they go on planes and vessels? 01:04:48 Allyson Nordstrom-Geraghty: No - if it's unaccompanied or on a vessel, it must be declared, regardless as class 9 haz using UN regs. The FAA/TSA will allow you to carry or place up to 100Wh in your carry-on or checked luggage total (tablet, laptop, etc.). 01:04:49 John Burrows: what do we do if the markings on the used battery is not readable? can it still be shipped? 01:05:47 Charlene Erusi: Does each battery need to be indiviudal box then inside another box? Or can we put all lithium batteries together into one box 01:06:07 George Kerchner: No. Air transport if very restrictive and they are in the process of eliminating exceptions for battery shipments. The exceptions are there for batteries installed or packed with equipment. Vessel transport does have the 100 Wh exception. 01:06:47 Allyson Nordstrom-Geraghty: George - can you provide the reg that says that about the 100Wh exception for vessels? I do not see this via the UN or IMDG regs. 01:07:05 Charles White: Mr. Kerchner…..why don't you introduce yourself and your organization to the group. 01:07:35 Allyson Nordstrom-Geraghty: The 100Wh exception for vessel movement is that emergency response companies aren't required and/or placards. The IMDG dec is still req'd. 01:08:21 David Nathan: Yes, George Kerchner, Mr. White has a good idea. 01:09:26 Oded Carmi: Dan, I agree that's it an issue for OCONUS shipments, but I'm specifically focusing on CONUS. 01:10:07 George Kerchner: The exceptions for lithium batteries in the IMDG Code are found in Special Provision 188. 01:10:47 Scott Kiewitt: Was there a determination of how that truck fire occurred? 01:11:06 Scott Kiewitt: What...caused the batteries to explode 01:12:04 Charles White: Oded....there are Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) guideline/requirements that we are supposed to be following! USTC now knows that and is now endeavoring to properly follow the rules. 01:13:53 Lars Koepke: Do you need special approved carton (cerified x ; y ;z) when shipping Lithium Batteries under UN3171? 01:14:42 George Kerchner: UN3171 does not require UN approved packaging. 01:16:30 George Kerchner: The outdoor power equipment has many Li ion batteries over 300 Wh. 01:17:09 Lars Koepke: ok.. but labeling and dgd required for UN3171, correct? 01:17:52 mark helders: Do we have to determine ourselves or can we require the member to provide the watt hours (amp/volts) and rely on that? 01:18:33 Allyson Nordstrom-Geraghty: Exactly. It's practically a second job - to ensure full compliance. It's so technical. 01:18:40 DeAnna Wyeth: What about batteries for solar equipment? 01:18:54 Lakelan Fennell: Mark, IMO, we need to put that on the "shipper" i.e. the DOD customer to notify and certify. 01:18:54 George Kerchner: UN3171 shipped domestically by vehicle has a blanket exception from 49 CFR. That includes e-bikes, hoverboards, scooters, etc. 01:18:59 Lisa Owen: Do service members have to provide all items with lithium batteries to us all at one time? During survey so we are prepared for packaging issues? 01:19:35 Barbara Gaines: This is an eye opener for sure! Great information. What happens if we have multiple shipments on a single trailer with 300 watt hours in each shipment? 01:20:38 mark helders: Lakelan, and I agree, however I have experienced the DOD often enough making the member the "non-knowledgeable" party and saying we, the industry are the experts. 01:20:45 Charles White: Mark.....That is what the USTC working group is talking about but in my experience with DOD.....they will say you Mr Mover is the expert and should not be totally reliant on the member. I think the member will have responsibility to identify the batteries but up to the TSP/Agent to determine the wattage 01:21:11 Thomas McCarthy: Some times yes, sometimes no. Thanks for clearing that up LOL. 01:22:06 DeAnna Wyeth: We had someone wanting to ship batteries for his solar panels. They were contained, but the battery "pack" consisted of about 40 individual batteries, weighing 60# 01:23:17 Ray daSilva: What is the clause in the DTR or Tender of Service that prohibits us from accepting combustible, flammable goods? 01:23:59 Lakelan Fennell: Don't ship it and get suspended. 01:24:24 mark helders: I want THAT in writing from the DOT TSI: "If there is any doubt, do not transport it." 01:24:52 JEANETTE HOMAN: YOU ARE RIGHT LAKE!!!! 01:25:06 Charles White: DTR and TOS are being amended to speak directly to the movement of lithium batteries 01:25:44 Lakelan Fennell: Ray..https://www.ustranscom.mil/dtr/part-iv/dtr_part_iv_app_i.pdf 01:29:02 Scott Kiewitt: Why do we not get suspended for not moving a propane tank or 5 gallon gas can full of gas for a lawnmower? Why can't the same dangerous item not to be transported apply to these batteries? 01:29:07 Ray daSilva: Thanks Lake. That is a list of examples of Hazardous Goods. Where is the clause that says we should not ship hazardous goods? 01:30:51 Lakelan Fennell: Per UMASS Environmental Health and Safety...Lithium-ion batteries contain flammable electrolytes, and lithium batteries contain lithium metal, which is highly flammable. These batteries can fail and overheat for a variety of reasons, including puncture, overcharge, overheat, short circuit, internal failure, or manufacturing deficiency. Failure of these batteries can cause thermal runaway, which is a reaction within the battery cell that causes temperature and pressure to rise at a faster rate than can be dissipated. This causes thermal runaway to occur in adjacent cells and can produce a fire. Signs of thermal runaway include overheating, hissing, or bulging of the battery. 01:31:09 Lakelan Fennell: Ray, see section H 01:32:40 Allyson Nordstrom-Geraghty: Well made point, Pete - FedEx and UPS would be considered the "experts". You guys can't threaten to suspend them, right? Like the DOD threatens some of these TSP's? 01:33:13 Renee Neely: Ray this is in the DTR that states what the member may not ship: https://www.ustranscom.mil/dtr/part-iv/dtr_part_iv_app_i.pdf 01:33:28 Scott Kiewitt: Only takes one item to start a whse fire or burn a trailer...but I understand what you are saying Charles 01:33:49 Charles White: Scott....you are 100% correct. 01:37:13 Allyson Nordstrom-Geraghty: Thank you - we would also like to clone you. I know many of us are feeling very overwhelmed by all of this. 01:37:25 Ruth Moritz: Looking over the TSI site is there a certification program that relates to international ocean and air shipping? 01:37:47 Ray daSilva: https://www.ustranscom.mil/dtr/part-iv/dtr_part_iv_app_k_1.pdf Article N (What you "may not" ship as HHG Sub article h. - Hazardous Articles... 01:38:37 Ray daSilva: This seems clear. Lithium batteries are classified as hazardous goods. We can't ship a combustible spray can. Same thing 01:39:18 Don Goldberg: can you expand if there is certain packaging material required? are batteries to be placed or wrapped in special paper or bags? special types boxes required? water resistant material? 01:39:23 Lakelan Fennell: Sub article H Ray is referring to..h. Hazardous articles including explosives, flammable and corrosive materials, poisons, propane gas tanks, cleaning supplies, light bulbs and batteries. See DTR Part IV Appendix I; Examples of Hazardous Materials. 01:40:32 Ray daSilva: So, we don't argue about why we refuse a paint spray can. Why are we arguing about this? 01:41:42 JEANETTE HOMAN: We all need to prepare for our Insurance Policies to increase drastically, AGAIN 01:42:15 Scott Kiewitt: How is liability determined if the carrier says - shows they followed the regulations if the evidence-battery(s) are destroyed in the fire they caused? 01:43:05 Lakelan Fennell: Scott, great question. How is inherent vice determined on a destroyed item? 01:44:09 Lakelan Fennell: Is USTC looking to rewrite the DTR to remove the battery shipping prohibition? 01:45:13 Sandra Clary - EDC®: I need to head to another call. Great info today - thank you for sharing. 01:45:27 Charles White: Thanks Sandra 01:47:30 Scott Kiewitt: A carrier has (4) shipments on a trailer and one shipment causes a fire due to Lithium batteries, if it is determined the carrier is at fault for non-compliance, is it fair to assume all customer will sue the carrier for full replacement value along with hardship? Same goes for a warehouse...but the number of potential customers being harmed is exponentially greater. 01:48:21 Charles White: Scott....all issues that need further clarification and discussion. Scary 01:48:52 JEANETTE HOMAN: We need an Insurance expert to answer this, burden of proof is on TSP?? or Insurance Carrier??? 01:49:02 Scott Kiewitt: Just throwing the kitchen sink in the chat for future reference🙂 01:50:36 Lakelan Fennell: It's because Canada is Metric isn't it. 😁 01:50:40 Allyson Nordstrom-Geraghty: May we have the proper links to look at training classes for air/vessel/road for PHMSA? 01:50:47 Charlene Erusi: so individually wrapped in same carton 01:51:27 Charlene Erusi: yes thanks 01:53:25 JEANETTE HOMAN: I've had enough fun for one day :) 01:53:32 Allyson Nordstrom-Geraghty: Dan - how do we get a copy of this recording? 01:53:46 Ray daSilva: We will post the recording at IAM Learning 01:53:52 Carl Weaver, MBA, CAE: https://iammeetings.com/ 01:54:01 Charles White: The recording will be posted at IAM LEarning 01:54:03 Luz Beltran: How do we get access to the recording 01:54:42 Rae Hickinbotham: Thanks - good stuff shared! 01:54:45 Brian Limperopulos: it will be posted on here: https://www.pathlms.com/iamlearning/webinars/31003 01:54:47 Carl Weaver, MBA, CAE: It will be on the same IAM Learning page. 01:55:02 Brian Limperopulos: we will need to edit and post it so give it a little time 01:55:10 Ray daSilva: For the recording go to this link later this afternoon: https://www.pathlms.com/iamlearning/webinars/31003 01:55:12 Scott Kiewitt: Great meeting...thank you Pete, Dan, and Charles! 01:55:19 Allyson Nordstrom-Geraghty: Thanks to everyone. 01:55:21 Brittany Brooks: Thank you, Pete! 01:55:27 Emily Kozubowski: thank you!!